M----- -- don't you dare use gothic lameness as a metaphor for American liberalism !

[That's a joke guys. Even less funny then my musing on the subject is interesting, which is to say, not at all]

I guess you're right. I'm part of the establishment now. I was thinking back to my teenage self, lost not so long ago. Goths confused me even more then and I was hardly establishment then.

p.s. I have no problems admitting to making sweeping generalizations of a dangerous sort here. If I offend anyone, just let me know and I will apologize.

I hate to break it to you Ennis, but the kids are rebelling against YOU! They are happy that you don't understand them and will continously do things to seem strange and a little dangerous to others.

Jim -- briefly for now (although this is something I would like to talk more about) I thought goths were supposed to look pale, therefore a black goth would have to wear whiteface. I could be wrong on the pale thing too.

Will look at the link, and check back. They just puzzle me, and I'm hardly an insider. I understand their need to rebel (and encourage it), it's the form and content of the rebellion that doesn't make sense to me.

Got a sister who was big into Goth at one time. Also, it is a very techie crowd, so there is lots on the net. Just do a google search. Here is a basic "what is goth" link. Here is a very corporate attempt to understand, from about.com.

FWIW, the primary binding force among Goths, in my limited experience, is a feeling of not 'fitting in' to mainstream society. In suburban Texas (where my sister grew up), it was an alternative crowd to the football player/cheerleader set.

The best comparison I can think of is the punk scene that preceeded it. They feel different from 'normal,' so they dress different, act different, and listen to different music as a way of bonding. If that rattles 'mainstream' people, so much the better - they feel the mainstream rejects them anyway.

The cloths, group names, etc. are meant to puzzle and distract you. If you judge them by the clothes they wear (or the name of their group), they figure you probably aren't the kind of person they care to know, so to heck with you. Oh, and white goths don't wear black face, nor would black goths wear white face (though there is no Goth 'code of conduct,' so I suppose they could).

Hint, Ennis: Type into a text editor first (I use Edit Pad, save, and then cut'n'paste into the box.

Oh, and I can fix it so the name goes first in the comments. Probably a good idea anyway. I'll put it on the list of Ish updates.

Finally: where's your bio for the About page?

DRAT. Long post responding didn't get posted and vanished into the void.

Goths don’t necessarily celebrate weakness per se. There are predatory, vampyric Goths and there are fainting-couch Goths and there are Droog Goths (made that designation up, but you understand) and wan Byronic Goths. Not having been a Goth, I may be mischaracterizing as well. Naturally, you are likely to find more, and better, info in Jim’s link, but there’s the capsule as I see it. Diversity among Goths just like everywhere else.

Now, if Goths spoke gothic, that would be way cool !

Well im sort of a gothicy person. I'm asian of Pakistani origin I have a gothic girl friend and I find it a bit wierd that ppl link goths with white faces :--

Well im sort of a gothicy person. I'm asian of Pakistani origin I have a gothic girl friend and I find it a bit wierd that ppl link goths with white faces :--

i am an asian goth....(pakistan)i wear dark purple more than i wear black!...infact i waer all colours but there is always black in them somewhere..i have funky jewellry and black nail varnish, eyeliner, lipstick, etc...
i am da only one in my school...but i dont give 22 fucks!!!

i am not goth but am a black black metal lover and not the popy new creations i mean bathory, venom, celtic frost, darkthrone, immortal, negator etc.... i do take great interest in gothic culture because i enjoys its dark melancholoy and its dark decorative intrigue i also like and some of its music wump scut and suicide commando, and covenant and bauhaus i just want to say to all the black goths or black or death metal heads out there you are not alone... we are out there rare yes but we are here ... i understand your pain when you are easily categorized by those who would consider themselves you betters, due to their skin or history of thier race with the genre. right your own chapter do not follow them unless you wish it. find youreself in the dark abyss let not thier numbers intimidate you or thier ignorance drive you mad... you are not alone.. we are truly the damned marked from birth and judged to the darkness in life you are the blessed angels of the fallen you flesh pure as the night. i bid do not hate those who do not understand but do not let them bother your soul into great turmoil. on the wings of blood of your whipped ancestry and lost culture find you a truth in your pure immortal darkness.

I'm a dark skinned goth. there's no racial code except the one that exists in ur head. have u not seem Queen of the Damned?

(Hail der shwartze tier! We are happy to exist the other side of the atlantic).

Dark Angel

ok firstly

1- there is no doctrine saying goths have to have white faces....goth culture has loads of different sub groups (like any clique. in society i might add)and those who choose to wear the victorian clothes/white faces are tradional goths (aka trad goths). your sweeping assumptions are not offensive as such, because they're not of importance, yet they do you no justice in the credibility stakes.

2- for a dark skinned goth check my myspace profile...

3-'At their mildest I find them puzzling and lame'.

Goth culture is about primarily music (allied to other things ), just like punk, classical, metal, eletronica whatever. each has its own culture.

sub cultures are all about the arts and goth is not exception. there is an extensive range of gothic film (tim burton, dracula, anne rice inspire movies),fashion (burlesque, victiorian, cyber etc,)Art (HR giger, dali...other surrealists), literature (shelley, wollstonecraft).

Did you ever stop to think what goths think of you? or any other sub culture for that matter. They might think that you're boring, middle aged, non descript or bland. As i don't know you, i have no idea of how you appear. What you look like is of no interest to me whatsoever, however it would be nice to think that in this day and age people would get over their own insecurities or phobias of anything 'not normal'.

Different is good, different (one would hope) is acceptable. Granted it is an idealistic notion, but its a shame everyone can't just get on with their own lives and look past their own ignorance. Like anyone of an ethnic minority will most likely know, its not nice to be judged on your appearance, so surely this should be extended to everyone, goths included.

kind regards

anita
(journalist,UK)

Anita -

So my credibility is damaged because I've described "Traditional Goths"? Presumably, they're so named b/c that's what most Goths were/are? How does generalizing from traditional practice make me inaccurate?

I'm happy to hear that there are actually, at least 10 brown skinned Goths in the world. Had I not written this post, I would never have learned that.

You're right, there are attactive aspects of Goth aesthetics. But I find it hard to understand a culture that fetishizes death and weakness. I just find that hard to comprehend. And at times, as with the "Khmer Rouge" I find it downright offensive.

How's this - would you tell me more about the aspects of Goth that you like and enjoy? Perhaps explain to me whether I'm wrong about the role of weakness, and if not, how to better understand it?

I've got an open mind about this ... I simply don't get it.

I'm not the only person associating gothiness with pale skin - here's a blurb by a desi goth where she makes the same association:

Can Indians be Goths?

This is a question that I have pondered since high school. I didn't go for the seriously Goth-y music--nothing crazier than Nine Inch Nails and no thanks to Manson--but everything else (books, movies, stories, fashion) I loved. Of course, being brown, it's hard to go fair and I was never one for white makeup or anything that would ruin my skin. I consider myself more of a fashionable goth--perhaps even a corporate goth, if you will.

ok.......most of you people have goth ALL wrong. I myself am a Goth and I just love take take every chance I have in educating the ignorant. We are NOT obsessed with death or weakness. We simply have made an intelligent decision not to comform with society. To be goth is to see the beauty in all things. Even death. It is not that we wish to die but that we have accepted death as part of life. Some Goths do wish to die but that is because like any person wishing to die, they have lost all hope. Please do not confuse a death wish as being part of Goth. As a Christian AND a Goth I see death as not only having beauty but as being the path of true life since when I die I will spend eternity with God. So really death brings life in my philosophy. Most Goths have their own definition of Goth but I think that every Goth would agree that beauty is seen in everything by true goths. Goth is self-validation, not self-destruction. Alternately, the choice to embrace this lifestyle may simply rise from a far less complicated psychology, and reflect an attraction to Eros through Thanatos, an attraction to the 'darker' side of sexuality. In other words, wearing the fashion or embracing the music because the wearer finds the extremity, intensity or 'otherness' of the dark Goth look or preoccupations to be sexy or empowering. as for Goths having pale skin I myself have Native American blood in me so my skin is always at least a tanned color. However I would enjoy pale skin because it would give me a more elegant look since white and black go so good together but that is just me. The point is weakness and Goth are by no means parallel. Yes many of us are pacifists but that does not make one weak. It just means that the individual does not believe in violence. I am assertive, neither aggressive nor passive. I will defend myself but I will not go looking for fights.....though I am of course guilty of a few anger outbursts when I'm sick or depressed. I know this is a long post but I love educating people in things they know so little about. I hope this helps. By the way this is by no means everything there is to know about Goth. For me to give my complete definition would require many many pages and I know that none of you want to read that much.

I myself am a dark-skinned goth. no i dont go buying costume make-up so that i can look "dead" or whatever. i prefer a natural foundation though i do my eye-makeup a bit dramatic. but being goth does not restrict you to a certain style. goth is a mentality to find beauty in all things. we have the ability to laugh at ourselves and not care about what others might think or say. so many people think that goths are "spooky" or "fixated on death and weird fetishes" and such but they are merely oblivious to what is on the inside. do i wear black all the time? no. i like shopping at stores like pacsun and hollister. yes hot topic does hold a place in my heart merely because i can find comics there that are difficult to find. next time do some research instead of posting something foolish.

they were two small busy california driving plumas school and in appearance her dc school supply washington they didnt qualify to fit the university of alabama at birmingham thoughts skittered to new possibilities due east along magic school bus video they have seen

I adhere to a form of Goth that is a genuine culture, rather than a teenage trend. I am 49. My form actually has beliefs rather than preferences.

Here is an excerpt from the journal "A Dark Issue: Dark Skin & Goth Look"

When most people imagine a Gothic person, they invison all black clothes and stark white, pale skin.
Although I love how pale skin looks, favor it and prefer it on a guy, I myself do not have pale skin...at all.
In fact I have an olive caramel complexion, which looks different under different lighting, much like Rihanna and Beyonce's complexions. Notice how in different light they can look either light or dark dark?
I do my make-up very well, and pull off the look very well too. I used black (Onyx Matte) lipstick as eyeliner and smear it, mixing in some purpilish (Boysen Berry) lipstick to create a shocking Amy Lee kind of popping eye-makeup.
I do wear all black, it makes me look lighter and at the same time dulls me out, but it still makes heads turn and eyes stare.
I dye my hair black (Its naturally a honey brown) and yes, I'm a mixed girl.
My features fit the look very well. I'm known to have piercing dark eyes, full lips (painted with my lipsticks) and nice bone structure (sharper instead of bulbous or wide).
Now, alot of people say that dark or tanned or relatively dark people cannot pull off the gothic look, which is not true.

What do you think?
I do love how pale/light skin looks with dark clothes, but I wasn't blessed like some of my other family members with it.
I always felt out of place in my mutt family (LOL) because of my complexion, but over the years it has lightenned, as I strongly avoid the sun.
I'm pretty happy with it, and Goths at comic cons and other places actually compliment me, surprised at how I look (It could be my shape, and ambiguous features that save me).

Either way I want to know what others think.
By the way, I have photoshopped some of my pics before and saw that I looked amazing with pale skin. Next, I only take pictures in good lighting like bathrooms. And lastly, I have worn light powder (NOT white) and it looked pretty (face only, but never left the house like that LOL)